From knan at mo.himolde.no  Mon Nov  6 11:33:51 2000
From: knan at mo.himolde.no (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Erik_Inge_Bols=F8?=)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 19:33:51 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [nas] Recording apps using NAS?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0011061931480.14842-100000@yme.mo.himolde.no>

Do any of you know about any recording applications using
NAS? "aurecord" is the only example I know about...

(I'm thinking about adding recording support to libaudiooss, but my last
attempt failed miserably...)

--
Erik I. Bols? | email: <knan at mo.himolde.no>
The UNIX philosophy basically involves giving you enough rope to
hang yourself.  And then a couple of feet more, just to be sure.



From jon at radscan.com  Mon Nov  6 19:52:39 2000
From: jon at radscan.com (Jon Trulson)
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 19:52:39 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [nas] Recording apps using NAS?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0011061931480.14842-100000@yme.mo.himolde.no>
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.4.21.0011061948580.21109-100000@nova>

On Mon, 6 Nov 2000, Erik Inge Bols? wrote:

> Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2000 19:33:51 +0100 (CET)
> From: Erik Inge Bols? <knan at mo.himolde.no>
> To: nas at radscan.com
> Subject: [nas] Recording apps using NAS?
> 
> Do any of you know about any recording applications using
> NAS? "aurecord" is the only example I know about...
> 
> (I'm thinking about adding recording support to libaudiooss, but my last
> attempt failed miserably...)
> 

	Other than aurecord, I think auphone uses 'recording' from a NAS
server as well - though I haven't tried firing that up in years... I know
of no other recording app that uses NAS.  Surely there must be at least
one out there somewhere? ;-)


	I know playback is sure working good ;-)

-- 
Jon Trulson    mailto:jon at radscan.com
ID: 1A9A2B09, FP: C23F328A721264E7 B6188192EC733962
PGP keys at http://radscan.com/~jon/PGPKeys.txt
#include <std/disclaimer.h>
Free Mars!



From pgf at foxharp.boston.ma.us  Mon Nov  6 21:29:01 2000
From: pgf at foxharp.boston.ma.us (Paul Fox)
Date: Mon, 06 Nov 2000 23:29:01 -0500
Subject: [nas] Recording apps using NAS? 
In-Reply-To: jon's message of Mon, 06 Nov 2000 19:52:39 -0700.
             <Pine.UW2.4.21.0011061948580.21109-100000@nova> 
Message-ID: <32455.973571341@foxharp.boston.ma.us>

 > > 
 > > Do any of you know about any recording applications using
 > > NAS? "aurecord" is the only example I know about...

sometime last year i did a bunch of searching for unix-based recording
tools, and came up with very little -- i'm sure i would have noticed
if one of them had supported nas...

paul

p.s.  what i discovered was that there are two types of tools:  a) the
type that does _nothing_ but record, and doesn't even let you see
recording levels, and b) the kind that does _everything_ in _addition_
to recording, including a full blown multi-pane gui with flashing
sonogram charts and LED VU meter simulations, all remote controllable,
and with "skins", of course.  and all i wanted was a simple
command-line recorder that would tell me if the volume was too loud... 
:-) :-/

=---------------------
  paul fox, pgf at foxharp.boston.ma.us (arlington, ma, where it's 36.1 degrees)


From rand at ling.umu.se  Tue Nov  7 02:03:17 2000
From: rand at ling.umu.se (Ola Andersson)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 10:03:17 +0100
Subject: [nas] Recording apps using NAS?
References: <32455.973571341@foxharp.boston.ma.us>
Message-ID: <3A07C555.C44@ling.umu.se>

Paul Fox wrote:
> 
>  > >
>  > > Do any of you know about any recording applications using
>  > > NAS? "aurecord" is the only example I know about...
> 
> sometime last year i did a bunch of searching for unix-based recording
> tools, and came up with very little -- i'm sure i would have noticed
> if one of them had supported nas...
> 
> paul
> 
> p.s.  what i discovered was that there are two types of tools:  a) the
> type that does _nothing_ but record, and doesn't even let you see
> recording levels

I made a program that shows recordinglevels of a soundfile read from
stdin
so that I can pipe from the recording program.
-- 
Ola Andersson                       mailto:rand at ling.umu.se
Research Engineer                   http://www.ling.umu.se/~rand
Department of Phonetics             Phone: +46 90 786 56 81
Umea University                     Fax:   +46 90 203 26 95


From pgf at foxharp.boston.ma.us  Tue Nov  7 06:12:55 2000
From: pgf at foxharp.boston.ma.us (Paul Fox)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2000 08:12:55 -0500
Subject: [nas] Recording apps using NAS? 
In-Reply-To: rand's message of Tue, 07 Nov 2000 10:03:17 +0100.
             <3A07C555.C44@ling.umu.se> 
Message-ID: <2910.973602775@foxharp.boston.ma.us>

 > > p.s.  what i discovered was that there are two types of tools:  a) the
 > > type that does _nothing_ but record, and doesn't even let you see
 > > recording levels
 > 
 > I made a program that shows recordinglevels of a soundfile read from
 > stdin so that I can pipe from the recording program.

that was my next step.  but it turned my project from a "find what you
need on the net" endeavor into a programming project, and i didn't
have the energy at the time.  :-)

is your program available for those of us that still might not have the
energy?  :-)

paul
=---------------------
  paul fox, pgf at foxharp.boston.ma.us (arlington, ma, where it's 39.2 degrees)


From jeremy.witt at spikebroadband.net  Tue Nov  7 07:44:54 2000
From: jeremy.witt at spikebroadband.net (Jeremy Witt)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2000 09:44:54 -0500 
Subject: [nas] FW: Notification: Inbound Mail Failure 
Message-ID: <CEB29C59A12FD411B32E00A0C9E0BDF570821E@NHNTS40ENT01>

Please remove jverkaart at third-rail.net from your database, this is no longer
a valid address.

Thanks,
Postmaster

-----Original Message-----
From: 	Jeremy Witt  
Sent:	Monday, November 06, 2000 9:59 PM
To:	Jeremy Witt
Subject:	Notification: Inbound Mail Failure 

The following recipients did not receive the attached mail.  A NDR was not
sent to the originator for the following recipients for one of the following
reasons:

* The Delivery Status Notification options did not request failure
notification, or requested no notification.
* The message was of precedence bulk.



NDR reasons are listed with each recipient, along with the notification
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<jverkaart at third-rail.net> jverkaart at third-rail.net
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Precedence: bulk
The message that caused this notification was:

 <<Re: [nas] Recording apps using NAS?>> 
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From rand at ling.umu.se  Thu Nov  9 07:27:56 2000
From: rand at ling.umu.se (Ola Andersson)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 15:27:56 +0100
Subject: [nas] NAS with XVision
Message-ID: <3A0AB46C.4515@ling.umu.se>

Hi!

I using XVision under Windows which has support for NAS.
I can play files, but certain samplingfrequencies sounds
bad. XVision can only play 11025,22050 and 44100 Hz and
when I play 16000 Hz sounds it resamples the sound.
Is this resampling done by XVision or NAS?

-- 
Ola Andersson                       mailto:rand at ling.umu.se
Research Engineer                   http://www.ling.umu.se/~rand
Department of Phonetics             Phone: +46 90 786 56 81
Umea University                     Fax:   +46 90 203 26 95


From jon at radscan.com  Thu Nov  9 10:59:38 2000
From: jon at radscan.com (Jon Trulson)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 10:59:38 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [nas] NAS with XVision
In-Reply-To: <3A0AB46C.4515@ling.umu.se>
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.4.21.0011091055530.25352-100000@nova>

On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Ola Andersson wrote:

> Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 15:27:56 +0100
> From: Ola Andersson <rand at ling.umu.se>
> To: nas at radscan.com
> Subject: [nas] NAS with XVision
> 
> Hi!
> 
> I using XVision under Windows which has support for NAS.
> I can play files, but certain samplingfrequencies sounds
> bad. XVision can only play 11025,22050 and 44100 Hz and
> when I play 16000 Hz sounds it resamples the sound.
> Is this resampling done by XVision or NAS?
> 


	I'm assuming that Xvision is the NAS 'server' side (ie: that's
where the sounds come out).  The Server is responsible for resampling I
believe.


-- 
Jon Trulson    mailto:jon at radscan.com
ID: 1A9A2B09, FP: C23F328A721264E7 B6188192EC733962
PGP keys at http://radscan.com/~jon/PGPKeys.txt
#include <std/disclaimer.h>
Free Mars!



From jt at xsound.demon.co.uk  Thu Nov  9 12:48:28 2000
From: jt at xsound.demon.co.uk (J. Thompson)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2000 19:48:28 +0000
Subject: [nas] NAS with XVision
In-Reply-To: <Pine.UW2.4.21.0011091055530.25352-100000@nova>
References: <Pine.UW2.4.21.0011091055530.25352-100000@nova>
Message-ID: <00110921534900.00789@xsound.demon.co.uk>

In the answer to the original question, I don't know but I suspect the
resampling is done in NAS.

I have looked at the resampling in NAS and it is a quick and dirty solution,
which is optimised for speed not audio quality. The reason for
this is that when NAS was conceived, there just wasn't the processing power in
the average workstation, let alone PC to do a reliable real-time accurate
conversion.  So your poor sound quality is probably as a result of the
conversion in NAS.

The only way to get around it is to resample your audio data before trying to
play it, or do the conversion on the fly. The resampling in SOX uses the
algorithm by Julian O. Smith III which is described in his paper.
ftp://ccrma-ftp.stanford.edu/pub/BandlimitedInterpolation.eps.Z   
I have tried this algorithm on my old 150MHz Pentium and it just about runs in
real-time under Linux and is optimised for audio quality. The difficulty then
becomes how do you pipe the output of SOX into NAS. I'm afraid you can't as the
audio I/O bits in NAS don't work with stdin, there is an fseek in the code.  So
you have to reasmple your audio files and store the resampled files before
attempting to play them, which is probably not what you want. 

I suppose the integration of this algorithm into NAS should  go on the
wish list, to improve audio quality but if anyone wants to attempt this then
they should be wary, and I'm not volunteering. The code on the Stanford website
is GPLed which is  different to the current NAS license (Please don't start a
thread on NAS licensing we visited this not long ago). There is however a way
around the license problem.  I have found that original version e.g. the one in
SOX was not GPLed, so it could be possible to strip the code out of SOX and put
it in NAS quite happily without conflicting with the current NAS license.

Jonathan Thompson

On Thu, 09 Nov 2000, Jon Trulson wrote:
>On Thu, 9 Nov 2000, Ola Andersson wrote:
>
>> Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2000 15:27:56 +0100
>> From: Ola Andersson <rand at ling.umu.se>
>> To: nas at radscan.com
>> Subject: [nas] NAS with XVision
>> 
>> Hi!
>> 
>> I using XVision under Windows which has support for NAS.
>> I can play files, but certain samplingfrequencies sounds
>> bad. XVision can only play 11025,22050 and 44100 Hz and
>> when I play 16000 Hz sounds it resamples the sound.
>> Is this resampling done by XVision or NAS?
>> 
>
>
>	I'm assuming that Xvision is the NAS 'server' side (ie: that's
>where the sounds come out).  The Server is responsible for resampling I
>believe.
>
>
>-- 
>Jon Trulson    mailto:jon at radscan.com
>ID: 1A9A2B09, FP: C23F328A721264E7 B6188192EC733962
>PGP keys at http://radscan.com/~jon/PGPKeys.txt
>#include <std/disclaimer.h>
>Free Mars!



From jt at xsound.demon.co.uk  Sat Nov 11 07:18:21 2000
From: jt at xsound.demon.co.uk (J. Thompson)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 14:18:21 +0000
Subject: [nas] NAS with XVision
In-Reply-To: <200011092254.eA9Ms9517968@newgate.sonartech.com.au>
References: <200011092254.eA9Ms9517968@newgate.sonartech.com.au>
Message-ID: <00111114250300.00787@xsound.demon.co.uk>

It looks as if the paper you found is the one I was refering to. Sorry
if my references weren't correct. It is a couple of years since I needed to
download the paper, and in the mean time they've obviously reorganised their
website.

Jonathan Thompson

On Thu, 09 Nov 2000, Julius P Malkiewicz wrote:
>"J. Thompson" writes:
>>
>>The only way to get around it is to resample your audio data before trying to
>>play it, or do the conversion on the fly. The resampling in SOX uses the
>>algorithm by Julian O. Smith III which is described in his paper.
>>ftp://ccrma-ftp.stanford.edu/pub/BandlimitedInterpolation.eps.Z   
>
>FYI ... it's apparently by Julius O. Smith III, and can be found at:
>
>ftp://ccrma-ftp.stanford.edu/pub/DSP/Tutorials/BandlimitedInterpolation.eps.Z
>
>( I tried to find it in the other place, and couldn't ... ).
>
>According to a FAQ on dsp's <http://puma.join.ad.jp/tech/faq-e/misc/misc-dsp>,
>one can find an implementation in:
>
>     file://ftp.netcom.com/pub/th/thinman/resample.01.Z,
>     file://ftp.netcom.com/pub/th/thinman/resample.02.Z, and
>     file://ftp.netcom.com/pub/th/thinman/kaiser.c
>
>Another DSP FAQ (http://www.landfield.com/faqs/dsp-faq/part2/) mentions
><http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~joe/resample/>.
>
>Hope this helps!
>
>  - Julius.
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Julius P. Malkiewicz                       mailto:julius at sonartech.com.au
>                                              http://www.sonartech.com.au
> SONARTECH ATLAS Pty Ltd                     phone: +61 2 9437 3499
> Unit 6, 39 Herbert Street                  mobile: 0416 032 267
> St Leonards NSW 2065 Australia                fax: +61 2 9436 3751
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------


From toy at rtp.ericsson.se  Wed Nov 15 16:00:26 2000
From: toy at rtp.ericsson.se (Raymond Toy)
Date: 15 Nov 2000 18:00:26 -0500
Subject: [nas] NAS with XVision
In-Reply-To: "J. Thompson"'s message of "Thu, 9 Nov 2000 19:48:28 +0000"
References: <Pine.UW2.4.21.0011091055530.25352-100000@nova>
	<00110921534900.00789@xsound.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4n1ywc3kol.fsf@rtp.ericsson.se>

>>>>> "J" == J Thompson <jt at xsound.demon.co.uk> writes:

    J> real-time under Linux and is optimised for audio quality. The difficulty then
    J> becomes how do you pipe the output of SOX into NAS. I'm afraid you can't as the
    J> audio I/O bits in NAS don't work with stdin, there is an fseek in the code.  So
    J> you have to reasmple your audio files and store the resampled files before
    J> attempting to play them, which is probably not what you want. 

Are you sure?  It's been a long time since I looked at the guts of
NAS, but I'm pretty sure that Sun's au format doesn't need a seek at
all.  So it shouldn't be too hard to modify auplay to read from stdin
for au files.

Maybe I'm totally wrong,

Ray



From jon at radscan.com  Wed Nov 15 19:19:43 2000
From: jon at radscan.com (Jon Trulson)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 19:19:43 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [nas] NAS with XVision
In-Reply-To: <4n1ywc3kol.fsf@rtp.ericsson.se>
Message-ID: <Pine.UW2.4.21.0011151911060.22992-100000@nova>

On 15 Nov 2000, Raymond Toy wrote:

> Date: 15 Nov 2000 18:00:26 -0500
> From: Raymond Toy <toy at rtp.ericsson.se>
> To: J. Thompson <jt at xsound.demon.co.uk>
> Cc: jon at radscan.com, Ola Andersson <rand at ling.umu.se>, nas at radscan.com
> Subject: Re: [nas] NAS with XVision
> 
> >>>>> "J" == J Thompson <jt at xsound.demon.co.uk> writes:
> 
>     J> real-time under Linux and is optimised for audio quality. The difficulty then
>     J> becomes how do you pipe the output of SOX into NAS. I'm afraid you can't as the
>     J> audio I/O bits in NAS don't work with stdin, there is an fseek in the code.  So
>     J> you have to reasmple your audio files and store the resampled files before
>     J> attempting to play them, which is probably not what you want. 
> 
> Are you sure?  It's been a long time since I looked at the guts of
> NAS, but I'm pretty sure that Sun's au format doesn't need a seek at
> all.  So it shouldn't be too hard to modify auplay to read from stdin
> for au files.
> 
> Maybe I'm totally wrong,
> 


	Close... There was a previous thread on this that culminated in a
post by Charles Levert: http://radscan.com/nas/nas-ml/msg00348.html.  

	Basically, it's the fact that au format is the first in the list
of openFile hooks that are tried in order to determine the right format of
the data. The first one (au) wins if it matches, so no fseeks are done in
the following hooks.

	This would be a good thing to properly handle in the next
release...  Anybody want to take a stab at it? ;-)

-- 
Jon Trulson    mailto:jon at radscan.com
ID: 1A9A2B09, FP: C23F328A721264E7 B6188192EC733962
PGP keys at http://radscan.com/~jon/PGPKeys.txt
#include <std/disclaimer.h>
Free Mars!



From jt at xsound.demon.co.uk  Thu Nov 16 13:43:18 2000
From: jt at xsound.demon.co.uk (J. Thompson)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 20:43:18 +0000
Subject: [nas] NAS with XVision
In-Reply-To: <Pine.UW2.4.21.0011151911060.22992-100000@nova>
References: <Pine.UW2.4.21.0011151911060.22992-100000@nova>
Message-ID: <00111620573000.00806@xsound.demon.co.uk>

I have just checked the source and Jon is correct on this. The AU format reader
only does a fseek if its not reading from stdin. I few years back I did write my
own AU I/O code because there were limitations with the implementation in NAS,
but thinking back it was because I wanted the output piped to stdout, which NAS
can't handle as there definitely is an fseek.

So to correct my original post, it should be possible to pipe the output of sox
into auplay, provided the output from sox is in the AU format and get good
audio quality.

Jonathan Thompson


On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, Jon Trulson wrote:
>On 15 Nov 2000, Raymond Toy wrote:
>
>> Date: 15 Nov 2000 18:00:26 -0500
>> From: Raymond Toy <toy at rtp.ericsson.se>
>> To: J. Thompson <jt at xsound.demon.co.uk>
>> Cc: jon at radscan.com, Ola Andersson <rand at ling.umu.se>, nas at radscan.com
>> Subject: Re: [nas] NAS with XVision
>> 
>> >>>>> "J" == J Thompson <jt at xsound.demon.co.uk> writes:
>> 
>>     J> real-time under Linux and is optimised for audio quality. The difficulty then
>>     J> becomes how do you pipe the output of SOX into NAS. I'm afraid you can't as the
>>     J> audio I/O bits in NAS don't work with stdin, there is an fseek in the code.  So
>>     J> you have to reasmple your audio files and store the resampled files before
>>     J> attempting to play them, which is probably not what you want. 
>> 
>> Are you sure?  It's been a long time since I looked at the guts of
>> NAS, but I'm pretty sure that Sun's au format doesn't need a seek at
>> all.  So it shouldn't be too hard to modify auplay to read from stdin
>> for au files.
>> 
>> Maybe I'm totally wrong,
>> 
>
>
>	Close... There was a previous thread on this that culminated in a
>post by Charles Levert: http://radscan.com/nas/nas-ml/msg00348.html.  
>
>	Basically, it's the fact that au format is the first in the list
>of openFile hooks that are tried in order to determine the right format of
>the data. The first one (au) wins if it matches, so no fseeks are done in
>the following hooks.
>
>	This would be a good thing to properly handle in the next
>release...  Anybody want to take a stab at it? ;-)
>
>-- 
>Jon Trulson    mailto:jon at radscan.com
>ID: 1A9A2B09, FP: C23F328A721264E7 B6188192EC733962
>PGP keys at http://radscan.com/~jon/PGPKeys.txt
>#include <std/disclaimer.h>
>Free Mars!



From knan at mo.himolde.no  Thu Nov 16 14:30:10 2000
From: knan at mo.himolde.no (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Erik_Inge_Bols=F8?=)
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 22:30:10 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [nas] NAS with XVision
In-Reply-To: <00111620573000.00806@xsound.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0011162228580.28346-100000@yme.mo.himolde.no>

On Thu, 16 Nov 2000, J. Thompson wrote:
>I have just checked the source and Jon is correct on this. The AU format reader
>only does a fseek if its not reading from stdin. I few years back I did write my
>own AU I/O code because there were limitations with the implementation in NAS,
>but thinking back it was because I wanted the output piped to stdout, which NAS
>can't handle as there definitely is an fseek.
>
>So to correct my original post, it should be possible to pipe the output of sox
>into auplay, provided the output from sox is in the AU format and get good
>audio quality.

Or, alternately, use sox's own OSS output plus libaudiooss underneath,
on top of NAS :-)

--
Erik I. Bols? | email: <knan at mo.himolde.no>
The UNIX philosophy basically involves giving you enough rope to
hang yourself.  And then a couple of feet more, just to be sure.



